Sunday, August 31, 2014

Nathans critque of my art.

I hate it when people create something terrible and expect others to like it. Lets take painting for example. You're a shitty painter, and that's ok. If you like painting, awesome, do your thing. However if you're a shitty painter, and you go on making shitty paintings without any improvement, and then expect other people to like your work (or in other situations collaborate with you on it) you are indeed one of the most annoying people on the earth. Just because you made it doesn't make it good, and I can't comprehend the folks that think that way. I'm really really glad I only know one person like this currently. If you create something that no one likes, why are you surprised when no one wants to work on it with you, or doesn't like it?
Being delusional must be nice.
  • Michael Kunze Sounds shockingly familiar.
  • Earl Chandler Hey, I will have you know that delusional is a nice place to visit sometimes. So don't go runnin down delusional....
  • Elizabeth MindThe Trim YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ME, AREN'T YOU
  • Michael Kunze this person doesnt visit.
  • Michael Kunze He lives there
  • Woden Hrafnass Kind of like the people who try out for Amercan Idol and suck, but get mad cause they think they are so good...
  • Earl Chandler But their mommy told them they sing like angels.....
  • Michael Kunze Angels can be tone deaf
  • Brandon Angus Bauman I think it's a really good feeling when you create something you weren't really proud of and just felt okay to you and everyone else praises you and tells you it's amazing.
  • Nathan Natred Trim Shut up Elizabeth MindThe Trim, you're too frustratingly good at things lol.
  • Kayleigh May "An artists only concern is to shoot for some kind of perfection and on his own terms, not anyone elses" j.d. Salinger
  • Nathan Natred Trim Then those people are not artists in Mr. Salinger's opinion, and I'm inclined to agree.
  • Marcie Ann Givens There is not a single person anywhere that is qualified to judge art. It is truly in the eye of the beholder. Thats the awesome thing about art. Here look.. <-- artistic shit
  • Nathan Natred Trim But when you pander it to people, and get mad when they don't like it, that's my issue. If I don't like your art you shouldn't take offense to it.
  • Nathan Natred Trim "Why won't you work on my movie with me?"
    "Because I don't like the movies you make."
    "But... but... they're good! You just don't understand art."

    Would be an interaction you'd have with that kind of person.
  • Eric Breitenbach It is like crafting. Sometimes somebody makes the most piece of crap weapon and is super proud of it. You see the wrinkled tape, the uneven lines (even with band saw cheating) or garish colors. You just say "that's cool" and let them be.
    When they insist however that they are a great craftsman, repeatedly and argue the point, eventually you have to either show them their flaws or just tell them to shove off.
  • Michael Kunze Trying sooo hard to keep my fingers from making statements....
  • Kayleigh May Their anger shouldn't anger you then. You should feel flattered that they felt you could make their art better.
  • Nathan Natred Trim It's flattering until they don't take no for an answer. Then it becomes annoying.
  • Michael Kunze That isn't this persons point though..They repeatedly shove it in your face because you have to like it or there is something wrong with you. Because it's art according to them so you are a plebian for not understanding it and therefore you have to help.
  • Nathan Natred Trim That's pretty much what I'm getting at. Please, create whatever you want for whatever reason you want, but I take issue with A) Trying to create art so other people will tell you it's good and B) Ostracizing those people as ignorant when they tell you they don't like your after forcing it upon them.
  • Kayleigh May Yeah, sounds like a bully at that point. I hate bullys
  • Kirk Stoner I think i know who/what this is referencing. Lol
  • David Alexander Cardamone ill bet you like this art work.
  • Kirk Stoner Not particularly. Looks like a paint by numbers. And the perspectives are weirdly skewed.
  • David Alexander Cardamone the problem with Hitlers art, is that it tries so hard to appeal to the "Good Tastes" of commoners. There's too much "Good Taste" in it that it hurts the eye.
  • David Alexander Cardamone Id make sure that every single art piece I make is something that Hitler wouldn't like. To "not Appeal" to Hitler's sense of "Good Taste". Hitler would label my art as "Degenerate art".
  • David Alexander Cardamone if artists tried to please other people by appealing to the "Good Tastes" then it wouldn't be art. That is what Mainstream Media is for.
  • Brandon Angus Bauman It has a comic book feel to it
  • David Alexander Cardamone "Like" and "dislike" are trivial matters in art. That is barely the way to look at art. Whenever you like it or not is inconsequential in understanding it. True that some artists want you to "like" their work but that is not the point to other artists. There are artists who actual want you to "dislike" their art. They want you to feel uncomfortable, to make you feel uncomfortable. They want you to change perceptions, question reality, inspire strange emotions, inspire theoretical thinking, give u nightmares, awaken the dream consciousness, to give you a mind-fuck, etc. The mere "like" and "dislike" has nothing to do with it at all
  • Leah Trim In my experience a lot of the best, most innovative and talented artists often dread showing their work. It is like putting your children out there for display and judgement
  • Cohle Fowler Band saw cheating? I didn't know you could cheat
  • Steve Martin IDC if you like my crappy inventions (not that you are talking about me). They are sort of like tattoos. I did it because I like it not because I thought some stranger would look at it and say wow that's neat. Is there a middle finger emote?
  • Chris Langham There is someone whom went to school with us that makes awful techno music and is constantly posting it on here. I will narrow down you choices. He was in 8th grade when we were in 6th but was in 9th when we were in 9th. His initials are J and U. He was a hardcore ICP fan then a wannabe gang member.
  • Eric Breitenbach Back in the days of going to crafting school uphill in the snow, both ways, you had to cut your linear with a knife... And you liked it!
  • Paul Parker I miss Linear *sniff sniff*
  • Michael Kunze So far the art we're talking about in the original intent of the post inspires projectile vomiting. Quit shoving puerile crap in people's faces and insisting they validate the small mindedness of the artist.
  • Kyle Johnson Awe, Eric Breitenbach. You hurt my feeling (all one of them) with your comment on my crafting
  • Kyle Johnson And how do you guys know about my art? I haven't shown many melee folk
  • Michael Kunze Kyle Johnson, no one mentioned you.. Lol.
  • Kyle Johnson I thought band saw cheating had my name all over it
  • Michael Kunze I like your bandsaw cheating. I use a power sander
  • Eric Breitenbach Nah, nobody targeted. When Adam and I started doing it back then I was always a little "this is cheating" but it works.
  • David Alexander Cardamone i look at things in progression from white belt to black belt. So if some art is going to be white-beltish, theres going to be training and leveling up to black belt level of painting. Some people stay a certain belt level and don't progress but from martial arts training if you can apply martial arts knowledge to other things you can progress in other skills from white to black belt levels.
  • Kyle Johnson A steady hand can not be "learned"
  • Michael Kunze Blah blah blah blah.
  • Kyle Johnson I figure that will be coming within the hour kunze
  • Nathan Natred Trim I hope this thread has been as amusing to everyone as it has been for me.
  • Nathan Natred Trim This is not a discussions about shitty artists by the by, this is a discussion about artists not being able to comprehend people disliking their art and pandering for them to do so. I don't care whether the art I see is 'good' or 'bad', and you can call those judgements pointless yet it's the way EVERYONE has to qualify things in life for them to make sense. The Mona Lisa is good. Shakespeare is good. Without these qualitative statements we can't assign value to anything, let alone art. Again, let me say, this isn't about judging art, it's about the freedom to express opinion as an art beholder and not be berated for that. If people don't want to work on your movies Dave, because they don't like them, that does not make them plebes, or uninformed, or uneducated, you don't need to be informed or educated to have an opinion on art, and you don't have a right to be mad or throw out how much money someone spent on your art school when they don't want to help you, as an example.
  • David Alexander Cardamone You are raging and I sense personal animosity towards me. It's as if I have to be the most unblievable awesomest artist in the world. Its as if I have to monopolize everyone with greatness. No. There will only be excuses for everyone to hate me. THat is what it is. it wont matter if I make something that is good because there will always be excuses. This is why I havent been to Melee in a month because you guys are all acting like assholes. This is why i want to move to a different group of LARP because you guys have personal issues of self-acceptance and low self-esteem. People with low-acceptance usually take it out on others in order to boost their egos.
  • David Alexander Cardamone "Self-Esteem comes from handling yourself well and being pleased with yourself, not from becoming entangled in conflict and wiping out somebody else".
    Aikido In Everyday Life, page 56

    I have had this impression about Tulsa, is that it is a logistically, a territorial problem in which the social conditions of the majority of Tulsans have low self-esteem. One can see the roots of Tulsa in it's past and history, the Tulsa Race Riot of 1921. Yes this was almost a Century ago and yes, Tulsa has improved, but the logistical problems of low self-esteem is still predominant in Tulsa society esp in the case concerned with Deaf discrimination. They "Go Out of the Way" which is, by itself, an interruption not just on others but on themselves, they waste their own time, by"Going out of the way" to be entangled in conflict, and try to wipe out somebody instead of being pleased with themselves.
    So, to me, Tulsa has a "Low Self-Esteem" problem.
  • Michael Kunze No one wants to help you because you are a bigoted piece of shit there David.
  • Michael Kunze Its comments like you mention above trying to insult one person. Which you couldn't insult me if you tried. You are a bigot and a poor one at that. You demean yourself with your constant hearie this and hearie that. Listen up there deafie. Grow up. Quit using your deafness as an excuse for all of your little problems and you might , just might start the process.
  • David Alexander Cardamone and what problem exactly is that? other people's assholism?
  • Michael Kunze Oh please any time someone doesn't want to help you or mentions a differing opinion, you come out with all the excuses in the world. It's all some conspiracy with you. It couldn't possibly be that people dislike you for the way you act or talk or comport yourself on facebook. It always has to be because you are deaf. it makes you look like a whiny lil bitch.
  • David Alexander Cardamone yeah right. Okies are always bigoted pieces of shit. Ive fought KKK Skinheads on the street. 6 feet tall skinheads with Nazi tattoos and demons. Real street fights. They'd come and attack me because everyone at the club would call them to come over to attack me because they dont like me because I am deaf. Dont freaking lie to me. Tulsans all act like Lemmings who all dont like it when someone is different from who they are. They cant handle differences in culture, opinion, music, race, clothes, etc. THey all have to be copy cat cookie cutter sheets of each other. They cant think for themselves that they have to copy other people around them to find acceptance. You speak for everyone as a 'group' as if you are all one proud asshole nation under Hitler. Im sure you have your little granny gossip tea parties and all talk about how you want to get everyone not to be in a part of the melee movie I am currently working on. Its all bullshit. If someone else in Melee made that very same movie or similar you all would like it. I call bullshit. This is just typical lemming herding and conforming to a socialist peer group.
  • Michael Kunze blah blah pay attention to me because Imbetter than you blah blah. You always come up with the most outlandish bullshit for excuses.
  • Michael Kunze You are not better than everyone else bud, you just think you are.
  • Michael Kunze We might it if it was any good. but you try to shove your trash down our throats so why then would we want to be a part of it? You act like a freaking 10 year old who doesn't get his way and call everyone names and throw your bigotry around like it's confetti. You need to grow up and live in the real world for a time bud. It might open your eyes. All your hate is gonna burn you up.
  • David Alexander Cardamone what exactly are we talking about here? Its perfectly logical if: IF someone likes my melee film they can be a part of it. If they dont like my melee film then they dont have to be a part of it. Thats perfectly logical and fine. Those are all freedom of choice. But what I am getting at here is that while people are free to make their own choices, but I feel that there are slanderous gossip in using peer-pressure to influence other people's choices and thus it becomes more than just everyones individual freedom of choice. People should feel free to have their own freedom of choice based on individuality and not social peer-pressure. Its fine if my films are bad. I actually do think my films are bad. But thats why I want to make films so they can get better. It takes effort and practice to make a good film. It takes a lot of work to make a good film. Film is supposed to be a group project with a crew. As a 3rd degree black belt, I dont expect a white belt to do anything better than a yellow belt, or a blue belt, or a black belt, but if they do, wonderful. When they are tested for their next belt, they just have to do their best. it isn't necessary for a Sensei to expect a white belt to be better than a black belt. its very unrealistic to expect that. It takes study and time and training for a white belt to become a black belt. It takes many years for that to happen.
  • David Alexander Cardamone I dont think Im better than everyone else I feel that I have the right to freedom of speech in art.
  • Michael Kunze There is no conspiracy you bigoted twit! You damn sure do have the right to your opinion but you don't stop there. You whine about people having a vendetta against you or a cospiracy and you retaliate by calling anyone who doesnt wnt to help you a racist or a drug user or a plethora of other things that only serve to piss people off more
  • David Alexander Cardamone Film is a group effort. Ive done most of the work in the films. Thats why it is difficult because its a lot of work for one person to do everything in a film. If you watch the ending credits in a film, there are 1,000 people in the crew. For one person to do everything in a film, it can suffer. Surely there has to be something I did in one of my film that is likeable while the other isn't. For me as I critique my own film, like my recent Melee movie for example, while I do believe that the imagery of the gothic girl dancing is beautiful, I think the editing could use more work and isn't perfect. It is actually unfinished. My problem is that I do see conspiracies. Not without a good reason due to experience though. I can imagine everyone all gossiping and talking to each other about "Oh, dude, dont be a part of Davids film, blah blah blah" and all talk to each other about that and then use gossip and social peer pressure influence that. Besides I think there is a little bit of a over-critical analysis of things. You expect me to do ILM stuff like George Lucas or something? Is that the kind of expectations? What more can you expect from a home-film-maker? Were you expecting Hollywood style effects? Film is a group effort, if a film sucks it isn't always my fault. But I do believe that I should keep trying to make films in order to advance and upgrade my skills to make a better film. I consider myself a blue belt in Film-making and not a Black Belt. It is by training and making films that I can advance to a Black Belt film.
  • David Alexander Cardamone I don't know. You actually say people would want to be a part of a film if they are good. Lets look at a Melee faction battle. Nuremburg wins, Tsunami wins, Nuremburg wins. next weekend, Tsunami wins, Nurenburg wins, Tsunami wins.. etc etc. What does that tell you? Films and Faction battles are just like that. Films fail or win just like faction battles. Thats how films are if they win or fail or not.
  • David Alexander Cardamone Its illogical to think that if one of my film sucked then they all will. Lets say that you join a Faction and you expect them to win every faction battle. Sometimes you will win sometimes you lose. Its the same with film-making.
  • Michael Kunze films rely on good scipts good actors good directors and viewers opinion. If you tank 3 out of 4.....
  • David Alexander Cardamone well Im not really trying to make a good film like the way you guys think I am. Its really supposed to be dry comedy. Im sorry if I said anything to offend anyone. From my point of view I sometimes feel I am getting personally attacked rather than impersonally. I dont always feel that a film has to be ''good" with good actors, good stuff in order to be 'good'. As an exploitation and B-Movie fan I didn't have that expectation to make a 'good' film with a Melee film, because Im not using professional actors. I was hoping that would be understood in that context. A lot of people dont like B-movies and thats fine.
  • David Alexander Cardamone